The Original Dry Bag Steak | Make Artisan Dry Age Steak at Home › Forums › Dry Aging Steak › Dry Aging Steak with UMAi Dry® › UMAi videos call for two different cures…
September 26, 2015 at 11:09 pm #2352
Just followed the directions on the 8 minute plus YouTube UMAi dry video for pancetta, which calls for sodium nitrite (cure #1). Also have a couple charcuterie books which also say either “cure #1” or “sodium nitrite”. After putting them in the refrigerator to cure, I came back to watch more videos, and saw another UMAi dry video that is 3plus minutes that calls for cure #2!…and after looking around the Internet cure #2 is called for when aging for more than a couple weeks.
I had planned on aging these for around 3 months and then shaving thin and eating just like that. Is that still possible? Won’t the salt take care of everything else? I put it in at 2.75% of meat weight…
What do I do now, and why hasn’t Umai addressed the differences in cure used I n the different videos?September 27, 2015 at 2:56 am #9528
The older UMAi Dry® pancetta video that you refer to called for “pink salt” which we got from Ruhlmans charcuterie book. Later we realized that the recipe should be corrected to use cure #2. We basically recommend cure #2 for most dry curing projects.
The UMAi Dry® Charcuterie kit contains instacure #2 which is what is called in the recipe that is on this site and in the Charcuterie kit. You are correct that when curing for more than two weeks cure #2 is recommended.September 27, 2015 at 4:15 am #9530
Thanks for your response. I will use cure #2 from now on…but the question remains, what do I do with the 10 pounds of porkbelly I prepared according to the old recipe? I would like to use it as I had planned, as thinly sliced pancetta eaten without being cooked…is that stil possible? It will have been in the cure for 24 hours before I can do anything about it tomorrow. Should I add cure #2? At 2000g, I added 5g of cure 1 and 55g of kosher salt…I noticed on ruhlman’s recipe it called for 11g of cure #1, which would be more than double what I put in mine…would it be safe and acceptable to add another 5g of cure #2? Or should I just hot smoke this like bacon to 150 degrees and freeze it for later use like we do our bacon and then cook it when using?
I have done some research since I found out about this, and there are some sources who say that as long as they aren’t curing for 6 months, they don’t bother with cure #2…but they use a lot more salt as well as cure in their recipes.
I have to say that I am disappointed in the contradictory directions in the videos. I just hope this hasn’t ruined what I had hoped would be an awesome way to use the sides of pork from the pigs we raised.September 27, 2015 at 4:31 am #9531
Cure #2 should be .25% of meat weight so for 2kg it should be 5g. Ruhlman directions/recipes are often inconsistent.
If you used cure #1 already, I wouldn’t add cure #2 because it will double the nitrite content. Using combination of nitrate and nitrite is safer, but often people don’t use either or use celery extracts for those “uncured” meat items that you can see in the supermarkets.September 27, 2015 at 1:41 pm #9532PhilMember
May I suggest that reading Stan Marianski’s article on curing meat might provide a better understanding of cures and when to use them http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-making/curingSeptember 27, 2015 at 4:02 pm #9535
This is a great suggestion.September 27, 2015 at 8:11 pm #9536
Thanks for the suggestion. Bought them last night after I noticed the difference in the recipes in the UMAi videos.September 27, 2015 at 8:43 pm #9537
I did that,thanks. But my point remains. I purchased several sets of bags, and my first attempt at curing was based on the video recipe that was put out by the company I purchased those bags from. And while I admit that I am the one ultimately responsible for my actions, I find it somewhat disingenuous to tacitly imply that the fault for that mistake was fully mine because I didn’t buy a book or two and instead followed the publicly posted recipe UMAi has on YouTube.
Anyone first starting out would not find the thought of following the recipe published by the company unreasonable, would they? I mean, everyone has to start somewhere, and where better to start while learning something new than the recipe published by the company you bought those bags from? Since the information contained in the video is faulty, why hasn’t the company simply taken it down?
And as to your point about what is in the kit, I didn’t buy the kit because I found the ingredients contained in it to be overpriced when compared to what could be purchased elsewhere – albeit in larger quantities. Which was OK with me because I had to actually have larger quantities than what came in the kit because I have a lot of pork to work thorough.
As to the celery seed, I have looked into adding ground celery seed into the spices/herbs I will use after the rinse and before the aging. If you have some suggestions on where to find more information on using ground celery seed for the nitrates they contain, I would appreciate it. And I would also appreciate suggestions on what anyone would do if they had made a mistake like this based on the video.
I am not trying to be a pain, here. What’s done is done, and I am just looking for a way to either salvage what I have and make it work for what I want it to, or for any suggestions on what I could do with what I have as it is short of throwing it out. I mean, right now it looks like cutting it into smaller portions and freezing it, then using those smaller portions by cooking them is about my only option. Unless the celery seed nitrates can salvage it.
For those of you following this, I will post any information I find that I feel would be helpful, as well as what eventually comes of the curing attempt. At the very least this will be educational for other people.September 28, 2015 at 12:02 am #9540BobMember
If your question is can you make Pancetta safely without using cure #2 the answer is yes you can.
From the Marianski site.
The fact is that the USDA states that “Nitrate is no
longer permitted in any curing method for bacon”
..September 28, 2015 at 12:25 am #9541
Many thanks. I guess the real question I have is can I dry age it safely, having used cure #1 instead of cure #2? With bacon, it is expected to be cooked…I was trying for a thinly sliced, cured but uncooked product.
I haven’t had time to read through the Marianski book I just bought, but I will certainly look into it. Thanks for the link too!
By the way, all the information I can find on the use of celery, celery juice, powdered celery juice, ground celery seeds is pretty much repetitive…there are no publicly produced charts or studies on the amount of nitrate in any of them, as it is suspected that levels would vary wildly. The few experimental trials that have been done seem to be successful in at least producing meat that *appeared* cured, but as none of the folks doing this were in a food science lab, they had no way to test for microbial levels, nitrite/nitrate amounts, etc. and none of them felt comfortable dry aging their test products, choosing instead to cook the finished product in one way or another prior to consuming…a reasonable precaution I feel :).September 28, 2015 at 11:12 am #9544BobMember
The Marianski recipe is cured and air dried. So Yes you can.September 28, 2015 at 2:09 pm #9546PhilMember
When you google “can you eat pancetta raw” many of the articles point out that in Europe it is eaten raw but in North America it is generally advised that it be cooked – I didn’t see a satisfactory explanation as to why this would be the case. Another aspect that was interesting was that to be eaten uncooked it must be sliced very thin otherwise it will be too chewy without cooking. This has been an interesting thread.September 28, 2015 at 3:54 pm #9551Dale ChristiansenMember
Tullamore, Thanks for starting this post . Three months ago I did the same as you ,used the recipe on video then saw the other one. I just resigned into using that pork belly as bacon and cooking it. Next time I will reseach recipes a little more instead of following UMAI’s recipes.
I often get a pancetta sandwich at the deli that is very thin sliced but not cooked. That’s the end product I was trying to. Maybe next time??
DaleSeptember 28, 2015 at 5:48 pm #9552RickMember
Here is some info on Cure 1 & 2.
CURES – Cures are used in sausage products for color and flavor development as well as retarding the development of bacteria in the low temperature environment of smoked meats. Salt and sugar both cure meat by osmosis. In addition to drawing the water from the food, they dehydrate and kill the bacteria that make food spoil. In general, though, use of the word “cure” refers to processing the meat with either sodium nitrite or sodium nitrate.
The primary and most important reason to use cures is to prevent BOTULISM POISONING (Food poisoning). It is very important that any kind of meat or sausage that will be cooked and smoked at low temperature be cured. To trigger botulism poisoning, the requirements are quite simple – lack of oxygen, the presence of moisture, and temperatures in range of 40-140° F. When smoking meats, the heat and smoke eliminates the oxygen. The meats have moisture and are traditionally smoked and cooked in the low ranges of 90 to 185° F. As you can see, these are ideal conditions for food poisoning if you don’t use cures. There are two types of commercially used cures.
Prague Powder #1
Also called Insta-Cure and Modern Cure. Cures are used to prevent meats from spoiling when being cooked or smoked at low temperatures (under 200 degrees F). This cure is 1 part sodium nitrite (6.25%) and 16 parts salt (93.75%) and are combined and crystallized to assure even distribution. As the meat temperate rises during processing, the sodium nitrite changes to nitric oxide and starts to ‘gas out’ at about 130 degrees F. After the smoking /cooking process is complete only about 10-20% of the original nitrite remains. As the product is stored and later reheated for consumption, the decline of nitrite continues. 4 ounces of Prague powder #1 is required to cure 100 lbs of meat.
A more typical measurement for home use is 1 level tsp per 5 lbs of meat. Mix with cold water, then mix into meat like you would mix seasonings into meat.
Prague Powder #2
Used to dry-cure products. Prague powder #2 is a mixture of 1 part sodium nitrite, .64 parts sodium nitrate and 16 parts salt. (1 oz. of sodium nitrite with .64 oz. of sodium nitrate to each lb. of salt.) It is primarily used in dry-curing Use with products that do not require cooking, smoking, or refrigeration. This cure, which is sodium nitrate, acts like a time release, slowly breaking down into sodium nitrite, then into nitric oxide. This allows you to dry cure products that take much longer to cure. A cure with sodium nitrite would dissipate too quickly. Use 1 oz. of cure for 25 lbs. of meat or 1 level teaspoon of cure for 5 lbs. of meat when mixing with meat. When using a cure in a brine solution, follow a recipeSeptember 29, 2015 at 12:46 am #9557
Thanks for all of the information everybody. I really want to thank everyone who has responded so far. I think it’s not just going to be helpful for me, but also for other UMAi users to be able to read through this and hopefully avoid the same mistakes…
I have put my question out there to some of the “experts” in the field, and received the following response from Elias Cairo, co-owner of Olympia Provisions in Portland, Oregon:
“If this (were) me I would hang the panchetta flat and not roll it. It would still cure just fine. But for a second hurdle of safety (you) could always cook the panchetta before consuming it. Pizza, pasta etc..
Seems to me the guy is saying it WILL cure fine, cure flat (most likely to avoid any anaerobic bacteria (botulinum), and if desired cook it to be doubly safe.
I am still hoping for a response from Mario Batali’s dad who runs a charcuterie in Seattle, WA, I think… 🙂
I’ll be sure to let everyone know what else I find out, and what I eventually do with the pancettas.
Thanks again to everybody!
Possibly the moderator can sticky this for everyone?
- The forum ‘Dry Aging Steak with UMAi Dry®’ is closed to new topics and replies.